Who Runs the World? Fleets.

Meir: Hello, and welcome to Anything That Moves, a Maniv Mobility podcast about the future of people and goods getting around faster, cheaper, safer, and cleaner. I'm your host, Meir Dardashti. Before we get started, the team at Maniv wants to hear from you. If you have feedback or if you are the founder of a company in the mobility space, please reach out to us via the form on our website, www.maniv. com. That's M A N I V. com and click contact us. 

Hi, everyone. I am here today with two guests to talk about fleets, Oana Duma from Arval and Zingha Lucien from Element. We'll let each of them introduce both themselves and their organizations. We're gonna talk about why both organizations matter and maybe why fleets more broadly matter.

This is also an episode that's being recorded in the context of the annual Barometer Report that was published jointly by the two groups. I will link to that Report in the show notes. I don't want to insult your readership, but I don't know how many people are as excited as I am for its publication every year.

 So, why don't we start with Ilana and why don't you guys introduce yourselves.

Oana: Thanks a lot. My name is Oana, as you already introduced me. I'm just going to start giving a bit of background on this one and why I'm here is so I'm actually Romanian. I'm based in Paris since several years and I have been with Arval for 14 years. I have been. Working into the fleet for the last 16 years in total.

So quite a long time. I started within finance, I moved into sales and since a few months, I have taken over the Arval Mobility Observatory, which I'll later introduce. Just to give you a bit the context of who Arval is it's a major actor in full service vehicle leasing and the specialist in mobility solution. What we are doing is that we are leasing vehicles up to 3. 5 tones mostly in Europe. Also, we have some markets in LatAm as well as Morocco and Turkey. We cover 29 countries with more than 8400 employees and as of now, we have more than 1. 7M vehicles. We do have quite a big coverage. We do know what, when we're talking about fleets, what we're talking about and the Arval Mobility Observatory, it's what I would say the branch of R& D. It's our think tank that works into identifying major market trends, shifts in the market and my role is to be able to identify what's happening and share this with all fleet and mobility stakeholders.

The core of our Arval Mobility Observatory being that. When you have the insights into how the mobility world, it's evolving. You can take more rapid and more informed decisions. And together with Element, we formed the Element Arval global alliance, which it has been founded in 1981. So 89, so I think we have quite a lot of experience between our Arval and Element.

I think I introduced a bit Element and and of course herself.

Zingha: Yeah. Thank you, Oana. Like Oana I've been in this industry for approximately 17 years, which is, quite a while. As you mentioned, my name is Zingha Lucien. I am a director in our strategic advisory at Element. And most of my time within this industry has been spent within advisory itself.

So a little bit about Element Element is the market leader for fleet management solutions in North America, Australia, and New Zealand. So within North America, we're in the U S Canada and Mexico, and we serve multiple industries: pharmaceuticals, the energy industry, consumer products, the financial services, and various fleet types as well.

Sales and service fleets and a mixture of the two, and we serve them from acquisition all the way to remarketing and solutions in between, like collision management, for example. And it's all to serve, or promote the health of a fleet. So optimizing fleets, and essentially that's what we do.

As I mentioned, we're in those five different countries, approximately 1. 8 million vehicles managed. In our entire partnership with Arval, 4. 4 million vehicles managed. And that's eight organizations. We have other partners separate from Arval as well: 100 plus global or shared customers.

Meir: What is a fleet and why is it different? Why is the vehicle that either of your organizations work with different than the vehicle I drive? Why is it that trends in fleets are different or worth noting versus trends in private purchasing decisions? 

Zingha: It goes back to your initial question, Meir about why does a fleet matter, right? A fleet matters because there are mobility needs to connect either goods to people or people to people going certain places or towards individuals itself. And there's always the need to do that in an efficient way.

So doing it individualistically like you and I would, if we want to go into one particular place does not support any one business model. There's a need for efficiency. Essentially a fleet supports an organization business model.

Businesses don't do that to serve one individual or to go one individual place. They do that in somewhat of an aggregate level. So they have to be able to support that by resources that would do that on a mass scale. 

Meir: If you're just walking in from the cold and someone wakes you up in the middle of the night and says what changes are happening in fleets?

And you were to poll that in the sixties and the seventies and the eighties and the nineties, it's not obvious. There are huge questions to ask. What big questions? What big axes have changed? What are your organizations trying to track by polling CEOs and fleet managers and HR departments? 

Oana: The Barometer started quite a long time ago. We have had the first edition 20 years ago. Yeah, of course it evolved. It started with five or six countries. Today we are at 30 countries. It's the second year where we also have Element countries into it.

So it becomes a truly global exercise. And the aim of it is first of all, to understand the. Situation as of today, but also be able to compare it with what has happened in the past. 

What are the 3 years perspective from now? We know nobody has a crystal ball to tell us how fleet is going to look in 10 years. I think if we would have it, both me and Zingha would be probably very rich and not staying in this podcast today, but as we do not have this crystal ball to tell us what's happening in 10 years, understanding even midterm shifts can help people take informed decision.

And when I talk about can help people take informed decision, that can be our organizations that can be external organizations that can be the CEOs and the fleet managers and the HR managers that we are interviewing. And it can also help us understand how fleet is changing the HR component in fleet has not been something that was extremely important in the past.

It becomes important. And ultimately, to the broader extent of mobility solutions, this is something that appeared rather recently in the market. If we compare it to the operational leasing and full service leasing industry, the mobility solutions, it's not something that have been there or have been as given in the last 50 years.

The Report is public. It's not something that we keep hidden in a box, but we want to be able to understand all these changes in this context.

Zingha: If I may add to this, Meir, I think, one of the questions that we and I think that's something that we get a lot. Coming from fleet managers, other fleet professionals is, what are the benchmark saying? Do you have other organizations that are, looking into those types of questions?

And I think what they're looking for is some form of direction validation of, some decisions that they're contemplating and what the Barometer does is that it takes all of those various trends, those various fleet concepts and topics, and it surveys a larger population to help them move in whatever direction that they think, or have a greater perspective on those particular topics.

It does that very well. And it gives it to you across the globe. Oana's talking about, some of those topics around sustainability, which is a huge, topic right now across the globe or decarbonization. I should say connected solutions.

It's just a range of topics. That's directed to fleet managers that helps other fleet managers make the right decisions.

Meir: To what extent do fleets represent the tip of the spear in terms of changes that are happening in mobility and to what extent are they sitting back and more of a conservative player in transition and purchasing decisions?

Oana: I'm going to fall back a bit in what Zingha was saying. A lot of the fleet it's indeed based on the need of, linking people to goods and so on. But what have we seen in the last year is there is coming more and more impact coming from HR needs when it comes to fleets. People offer cars as way of retaining talent, of a way of bringing employees and so on and not only on the cars, but broader mobility solutions. It's becoming not more on a question around, what fleet managers are doing, but it's more if you are a corporate you need to think of what are the solutions that you offer to your employees.

And this can be in the form of a car. This can be in the form of a bike. This can be in the form of a private lease that it's being offered. In the broader context of this, I think fleets become more and more important into what is a business operating model. And at the end of the day, if we look on the companies and not only the very large ones, even this, the mid ones, or even the smaller ones, as both are valid, it's targeting, let's say, all the types of clients today, the cost component, the fleet.

It's actually a very big 1 when it comes to indirect costs. And then you also have, of course, an impact coming from the CO2 emissions. And as I said, an impact coming from the HR decision. So it's becoming. Kind of a triangle, if you want to say where different stakeholders are linked into the fleet. It's not only 1 person is responsible for the fleet.

You have multiple stakeholders linked to the fleet and I think from this perspective, fleet it's actually very interesting. You don't have only 1 person who takes the decision. You might have one person who takes the decision for the guys that need the cars to deliver goods and another person for the cars that needs to meet people and another person for the persons who just have a benefit car.

So it's a very interesting perspective from, and it's becoming very important in the companies and also for us, because it's a multiple stakeholders type of domain. It's not don't have only one.

So it's a very broad environment. And I think from this perspective, fleets are important because when we do the Barometer, we don't talk only with the fleet managers or only with the drivers. It's really targeting all the stakeholders in the environment and as I was just presenting a bit earlier, they can be quite a lot.

Meir: By the way, on the topic of diversity of fleets and diversity of stakeholders, one of the reasons I'm excited about this conversation is that there are some differences in North America and Europe in terms of corporate car culture in terms of the composition of these fleets, and I'm glad to have both your perspectives here.

Arval and Element might be partners. They're not exactly the same company, and that reflects the markets in a lot of ways . 

So I want to dig into the data. One of, I think the most surprising data points for me and maybe this is proof that I live way too far in startup land and need to get out and see the real world a little bit more was just the persistence of this trend that commercial vehicles consistently lag passenger vehicles.

In electrification. and it was surprising to me, because as both of you said, fleets make decisions based on total cost of ownership. And at least in theory, electrification should be driving down costs, at least for vans or for certain form factors that are ready.

Fairly well developed. What do you make of the fact that, and it's very clear in the data, and again, everyone is welcome to go and download the Barometer that across geographies commercial electrification lags passenger.

Is this a matter of that the vehicles in the market aren't good enough to meet the needs? The infrastructure is not good enough. The TCO is really not there. Or maybe fleet managers don't want to think about all the factors that go into electrification. What do you make of this lag?

Zingha: I can answer definitely from a North American perspective. We've not yet achieved TCO parity. Economically, we're not there yet. But I think separate from that, it's availability. So within that space, there aren't the vehicles 

 in, in the format, in the configuration that most of our customers are looking for.

So that matters. I think if there were the availability, then. Maybe for some organizations that are focused on the sustainability gains, right? Or on decarbonization, it would be easier for them to move in that direction. But I think there are also some other factors like range anxiety. How long do I have to go before I could refuel those vehicles?

And if, there isn't the infrastructure to support that, that's a concern. There's also been anecdotal stories around collisions and the repairs of those vehicles that I think creates pessimism on, how long this electrification movement will last. Whether it's even a viable solution for fleet.

So there's a little bit of that mixed in there. That's perhaps pulling the demand of such assets down. But these are all of the things that they're taking into consideration. But I think if they could solve for the TCO factor as well as availability. You'll see it moving in a positive direction.

Oana: Now, I think this is 1 of those questions where you can actually see the difference between Europe and North America as we were talking earlier. Now, actually, this is very funny because when we look at the general trends of electrification, we do see that Europe it's more advanced in terms of adoption and consideration for the future for passenger cars in the terms of LCV's actually, they are very similar one to another.

In this context, your question makes totally sense where Europe it's even lagging more behind on LCVs versus passenger cars. I don't think it's only a question about the TCO and the reason why I'm saying this is that when asked why they electrify, 28 percent of the people that responded said because the TCO is similar.

It's something that the decision makers are aware that when it comes to TCO, depending on the financing mode at the end of the day, because you're going to calculate it a bit differently depending if you are leasing it or if you are buying the car, or if you're crediting the car, it comes to a level where it's at the same point.

However, I think when it comes to adoption of ELCVs in particular, hydrogen is rather new. There are still a lot of questions of where you to charge it, availability and so on. So if I stick only to ELCVs, then you have a number of questions that today do not have definitive answers in either of the spaces.

A decision maker for a commercial fleet will want that you can do your full routes with 1 charging per day. Do you have the range? It comes into the thing I was saying, do you have the range to do it? Do you have where to charge your car? It can work very well for parcel delivery companies that can charge overnight at the depots.

And we've seen that they are probably one of the 1st that took the road into electrification and adopting, but if you are a construction company, this might become and your drivers take their cars at home each day, this might be a bit more complex. It adds complexity where you add towing payload of the cars and so on.

So I think, it's not only a matter of cost. It's also a matter of the broader environment under which commercial fleets are standing and ultimately, it's also a question of availability of cars. In Europe, there is a limit on 3. 5 tons, which is reglemented In most of the countries, and today you have a lot of medium and large varns on which if you put an electric battery, they are going to be more than 3. 5 tons. How do you take those cars when from legislative perspective, you don't have yet the reglementation. I, but I do believe it's going to develop in the future. We've seen a lot of companies announcing this year a lot of new models with longer late Rangers. I think it's going to be interesting to see how it's going to evolve.

Meir: If I can ask a question that might only be answerable anecdotally, to what extent is this all sorts of function of these are human beings that are making fleet decisions that have never had to consider these things before. Zingha, you mentioned range anxiety.

It might be that they're worried about the functional range of a vehicle or it might just be, they've never had to think about this before. I had a fleet manager tell me last week, I never had to install a gas pump at my driver's house. And now I have to figure out how to arrange a charger.

Is there a world where. Maybe more so in the U S than Europe where I think there's more cultural acceptance and more willingness among fleet managers to say, okay, this is part of my job. Is there a world where U S fleet managers are saying like, listen, this is not part of my job. I buy vehicles, I lease vehicles.

I don't set up charge spots. Is that something you're seeing in the field?

Zingha: Yeah, absolutely. There is a social and political aspect to it as well. But I do think it's a, there's a human component as you mentioned Meir. One of the things that I've seen quite a bit of is just a search for information.

So tell us holistically: what does that look like? Map it out for us. Give us a road map in other words. Tell me all of the things I need to consider so that I could do this seamlessly. And I think if that's solved for it helps with adoption. But certainly right now, a lot of fleet professionals are having human moments, right?

It's a matter of change management and helping them go through that change. And I don't think that we've done that within the U. S. Just yet. Some of us are still figuring it out because there are a lot of different components, a lot of new players in the market, lot more new technology to consider.

And we've not had that. I wouldn't say we've not had that issue In, in Europe, I think Europe is far ahead of the U. S. We're learning from them in, in, in some instances, but we're also trying to figure out how things fit into our current market. We learn as we go and that's what we're doing, and hopefully very soon we could package it all together so that we could help guide our fleet professionals through the process.

Meir: So I actually want to talk about telematics, which is a sentence that is not often uttered. The other number that just jumped out at me from the Barometer is how few people. Actually you have a few light commercial fleets actually use telematics.

It seems like a pretty basic technology . It's been around for a long time. Are you surprised when you look at numbers and see 25% of fleets are using or own telematics and half and 12% are 13% are using them?

Oana: It's 40 percent globally. 25 percent is the LCV fleets that have telematics. Now, we have reshaped this questions in the last year based on the fact that we have seen that in the way in which we define telematics can be quite different.

And we actually had a very strict definition this year, which was encompassing, the telematics devices that not up to base, but really, having something installed. In the car by the OEM or after sales that gives the fleet manager data to use it. So coming from this, I think the 40%, it's not a huge surprise.

I would say we were expecting it to be in that range. What it isn't, it's surprising is that when we went and asked people, do you actually use this data, that's where the surprise came because I think that figure is 16 percent or 15 or 16%. People do have the devices, but then when being asked on how they can use the data in their benefit, that's where they struggle.

At this moment, we are going to see the cars being more and more connected with telematics devices. That's a given. It's not something that it's up to Arval or Element or whomever we do see the OEM are informing that more and more are going to have telematics devices on them. In Europe, we have several recommendation regarding safety that impose actually devices that are going to tackle telematics data.

It's giving the OEMs also an entry point to have this things and then, of course, you have all the providers that provide telematic services. I think what the decision makers are struggling today is how you take the set of data that you get from telematics, which is very impressive and how you find ways in which it can support your goals, being that those goals are the safety of your drivers or the safety of the vehicles, which is the biggest thing that people are looking for being that they are to manage the fleet, being that they are to reduce costs.

Funnily enough, people don't use data from telematics to reduce costs as their primary lever. They use it mostly to ensure safety of drivers vehicles and only after and ensure better operations model. I do believe that, coming from leasing companies, this is going to be the next the next challenge for everybody is how you can take this set of data and be able to actually use it to take informed decision. And I believe this is something that we do see more and more being discussed in different forums in different events and so on is how you can benefit from the data is not if data is there or not, because this is already there at 40 percent is going to increase for sure in the future.

If we look at the willingness in the next 3 years between the already using and considering in the next 3 years, the figures grows from 16 percent to 61%.

For sure, the people want to use the data. I think in Europe, it's also a constraint coming from regulation, but I think that's that's another topic linked to data and telematics that it's probably can be the scope of a total separate podcast, I would say.

Zingha: I just want to add a little bit to what Oana just mentioned, which I completely do agree with. One of the questions that we get from customers a lot is what's the ROI for Telematics? And I think the reason for that is that most organizations are trying to reduce their TCO.

So I think that's one of the main barriers to adoption is the TCO, the added cost for adopting telematics. But I think one of the things that they struggle with is showing the true value of getting a comprehensive view of how their fleet is being managed, right? So looking at not just fueling or maintenance or, just general productivity.

When's the right time to replace the vehicles? Looking at these things collectively rather than individualistically. So getting the right information to help them make the right decisions, but not looking at just individual components of fleet. That's what we have to work to show them.

But really and truly, I think one of the main barriers there is just the cost of telematics.

Meir: I want to talk about, and I want to lead with Zingha here because I have a feeling there's a very strong difference here between North America and Europe, and I'd like to probe it a little bit: mobility services.

What broad stories are we supposed to take away from mobility services, in terms of whether or not these services actually replace fleet vehicles or supplement them? I'm curious, Zingha, are you getting a pull from fleet managers in the U S for these types of mobility services? 

Zingha: Yes, and no, while it depends on what mobility services that we're speaking about I think a lot of. fleets are looking at utilization as a whole. It, it leads them to ask the question about how do you respond to whatever needs that they're that they're serving, getting goods to individuals, getting people from one location to the next.

So what type of assets would support that need? And in some cases it does. There's a need for ride sharing, for example, so it's not providing a particular vehicle to support the need but providing a solution nonetheless. I think you see a lot of customers are taking in such solutions into consideration.

And then with regards to other assets such as scooters and bikes and other mobility solutions, I think it's a very different thing in North America compared to Europe because of just people's social and political leanings. I don't think it's part of our culture necessarily in North America just yet.

But getting increasingly so if you, for example, are to go to urban communities, you will see such solutions, but I think in America, things are a little bit more dispersed than they are in Europe, for example. The traditional vehicle is what you will see representing those needs, but we're moving increasingly towards other mobility solutions, ride sharing mobility budgets shows that there's still a need to support, whatever the service that organizations are willing to provide.

But it doesn't necessarily reduce the need for fleet because of course there is stability There's also growth that they need to support as well. But definitely a different attitude of different culture compared to europe and some-

Meir: If I can try and translate for a lot of these fleets, downsizing is a Ford F 150. It's not a scooter. I want to go into a little bit more depth about what are the mobility services that you're seeing the most sustained demand for? I'll acknowledge that the bucket of things that the Barometer considers mobility services is a little bit broader than might be obvious.

So Zingha mentioned ride hail. There are also different versions of leasing back a private vehicle, sharing within a fleet. Not every mobility service is a scooter on this list, but I'd love you to also see if you can touch that question of, do you see these services as fundamentally competitive with the fleet vehicle or supplementary?

Oana: I'm going to start with the last question before going a bit into, the types of mobility solution. We have been asking actually in the Barometer this question for several years if these solutions are, going to replace part of all of the fleet. And we started asking is the moment when we actually transformed our Barometer from a fleet Barometer to a fleet and to a mobility and fleet Barometer, which was four or five years ago.

And this is one of the results that haven't changed over the years, which is that mobility solution are an add on to the company fleet and not something to replace it. And that's for a very simple reason, because when we talk about mobility solution, if you're going to lease a bike in a company, it's not only the guys that have a company car that will need to lease that bike.

It's all the employees, if you offer a ride hailing solution, because I think this is one of the solutions that is taking more and more space in all the countries. It's not going to be the person who has a company car moving from his place to the office each day that's going to use that right?

Hailing solution, but it's going to be probably somebody like me who doesn't have a company car and doesn't like to walk the 3 kilometers to the office. I think, and this is how we do see it from our perspective that mobility solutions are just something that are addressing to the whole population of the company, while the company cars addressed to the people that benefits or have a need of a company car.

And usually the fleet population, it's, I would say, probably around 25 percent of the company, while the rest of them are going to be open for mobility solution. So they're not contradictory. They're not cannibalizing one each other. I think they can easily coexist. And I think this is why we do see today this transition from fleet policies to mobility policies in a lot of companies, or at least the discussions that are starting around this.

Is it very mature? No, if we, it's very mature in the sense that if we ask people, have you at least mobility solution. Almost 80 percent globally are going to say, yes, we have , but then if you look in detail for each of the solutions that we are describing, a lot of them have quite small percentages, like most it's 17 percent have cash allowance, 15 percent have a mobility budget and then you also have these things that are related to policy, and then you have the pure solutions like ride sharing, where it's like at 90 percent today or bike sharing and leasing, which is at 16 percent today, say the bike sharing and leasing, and I'm very tempted to say it's more bike leasing that bike sharing today, because bike sharing, it's not yet very much developed in Europe is probably one of the areas where we are going, we are seeing the most increase and we have seen that in terms of consideration for the next 3 years.

It's the one that jumps at over 30%. So it's going to be very interesting to see how this is going to develop in the future. It's a lot of the companies are considering to implement some of the solutions in the future, but of course, I agree with Zingha. I think the one commonality between Europe and North America here is that when it comes to mobility solution, it's very much related to where is it based, to whom it is addressed and finding the best mix to respond to those people needs.

And you're not going to have the same population in the Düsseldorf area of Germany compared to Amsterdam area in the Netherlands.

Meir: How do you think about how the Report evolves over time, which is really a way of asking how do you see the hot topics and mobility evolving over time?

Zingha: I think I have some ideas around that, it's funny because one of one of the questions that come up a lot are the areas of topic that, that, that comes up a lot is around AI and machine learning and predictive modeling. So maybe they'll ask us to predict their answers in the coming surveys, but

But yeah, definitely I think within the next few years we'll get a lot more questions around the meaning of data. So data, how they're using data or who's using predictive models to make decisions within their fleet. That sort of thing. I know that we're leaning towards that direction of data driven decisions.

We're not there yet. You were talking about telematics earlier on, and the lack of adoption. And I think, As that becomes a little bit more mature, we will see a lot more questions leading to, data driven decisions for sure. 

Oana: Now I think maybe this is more a personal wish than a reality, but I do believe that in 10 years from now, I do believe that whole chapter around electrified your fleet is. Do you have BEVs? Do you have BHEVs how this is evolving might not be necessarily something that we are going to tackle anymore or at least not in that form.

 But in 10 years from now, everybody's going to be in a moment where asking if they have BEVs in their fleet is going to be redundant because it's not going to bring any relevance anymore.

It might change into: do you have autonomous vehicles, or it might change into: do you have hydrogen vehicles? I do believe, that the data driven decision is becoming more and more a topic and I think between now and the next 10 years, what we are going to see, it's more focus on topics related to sustainability.

Because this is something that it's coming more and more as an impact into the decisions. So you were talking earlier about the fact that the fleet decisions have been traditionally made based on TCO. What we do see these days is that the most important challenges expected by fleet managers are not the increasing, it's, it, the increasing cost of TCO, it's not on the first it's not the first thing that comes into mind.

The adaptation to restrictive public policies and implementing alternative fuel technologies. It's the 1st 1 and complying to policies and having an impact, a positive impact on the environment seems to be the 1st things that come to mind to people. It's still there. It's not going to disappear. At the end of the day, fleet, it's still a procurement environment.

It's still going to be decided by the cost, but it's not the only lever. And I think this is a structural change that we are seeing within the fleets and. In Europe, what we're seeing, it's also an increased concern when it comes to driver safety drivers, happiness, talent, retention, and so on.

That also started to pick up in US, Canada and Mexico this year, though, it's not exactly yet at the same level. I think this is going to impact the way in which we are going to consider our questions in the future, because it seems that the whole stakeholders framework is changing.

Meir: I want to flag that everything empirically and subjectively seems to be diverging or at least different between Europe and North America around electrification around a lot of other factors in driver dynamics data and how data is handled.

And yet the data, actually, the survey results are fairly similar. They're not that different between Europe and the United States. And it makes me wonder whether maybe we're overreading the subjective side or whether people are fully honest in their survey answers. But it's interesting that we have this conversation and a lot of it circles around differences in North America and and Europe.

And I can tell you from having spoken to a couple of fleet managers myself, they sound different, but the net results were not that different in the survey and I really wonder what to make of that.

Zingha: I think part of that is because a lot of organizations are global now so it's where exactly is leadership. So where are, the demands or objectives set and how that's cascaded down. There were some differences certainly there are differences in the culture and our social political leanings that can affect some of the fleet decisions that you would see within the Barometer itself.

But You brought up a point earlier around us just being human beings, making decisions, and you'll find that we are human beings across the globe and we're all looking to make the right decisions, and we may be facing some of the same barriers. In some cases, there are some differences that you will see with regards to our adoption, our usage of alternative fuel vehicles.

But also it's probably not even a difference necessarily. It could be that we're just lagging, right? Somebody has to adopt it first and sometimes it's lessons learned and we're following Europe in some cases or Europe following the U. S. in some cases, or there are similar regulations across the board.

That's leading us to perhaps participate in this industry in a similar manner. So I think that's some of the things that you're seeing within the Barometer, the results of the Barometer itself.

Oana: I think we have a human tendency to look mostly at the differences and funnily enough, if we talk about differences between Europe and US, I can tell you, if we look in electrification, you can see the difference between Europe and Europe. If you look the difference in electrification between Finland and Denmark compared or the Nordics in general, compared to East Europe, you're going to have the feeling that you are on a totally different environment.

So globally, the results are very similar, and I think this stems from 2 things: the fleets are important, no matter if you are in Australia, in US or Canada, or in Europe, and this is something that we've established from the beginning. So the fleets are important in the business and corporate world in a form or another being that they are only, tool vehicles or benefit cars, they have an importance and the questions that steam for fleets. They are going to be the same. People are going to ask themselves the same questions. How do I get the best cost? How do I make my employees happy? How do I offer them the best alternatives? How do I respect the regulations?

How do I reach my CO2 targets being that they are the company imposed ones or the government imposed ones? And these is that we see that everybody has these questions. This is not something that only somebody in a specific zone of the globe.

It's going to put them, but everybody has them today. And there are differences in adoption, there are differences in the way people are answering their different ways in which they are doing. I would say probably the answers to these questions may be much more different between different regions of the world then the question basis, so I think this is why we are agreeing quite on a lot of points during this and not saying this is only for US, and this is only for Canada, and this is only for Europe.

Meir: I want to have a separate conversation, and I've had it with procurement at Arval. I'm very curious to have with procurement at Element.

On new EV entrance but the China store is really more relevant for Europe at this point. So then let me just try and summarize with this bottom line, which is the Barometer is out. It's really interesting. And it's interesting because the joint user base of these two organizations is something above 4 million vehicles.

So what this customer base is saying is probably worth listening to. Oana, Zinga, thank you so much for your time. Would love to follow up in person and really appreciate your time. 

Zingha: Thank you so much for including us on this podcast.

Meir: Thank you to producer Naomi Lazaroff for making this episode happen. If you liked her work and are willing to put up with mine, please rate and subscribe to Anything That Moves wherever you find your podcasts. Once again, for feedback or to reach out for investment, please go to Maniv. com and click contact us.

You can also find us on LinkedIn or Twitter at Maniv Mobility. Thanks for listening.​